My recent purchase of two saris got my restless mind squirming. I began to wonder what people of Indian descent would really think of a white Westerner that would dare to wear a sari. Since I don’t have a huge circle of Desi friends to ask, I was forced to resort to Googling “white woman sari” and various similar combinations of keywords so that I could get an idea of what people actually think of such a thing.
Naturally, it is naïve to expect one clear answer on the subject. The opinions were fairly equally divided between the “of course you can wear one!” and “don’t be ridiculous!” camps, which didn’t really help answer my question.
I decided to wear the cotton brocade out to the shoe store as my black Birkenstocks ruined the look and I needed something nicer, and to the grocery store. Just to see what would happen. Sadly, no Indian folk were to be seen during my excursion and I had to settle for the delighted smiles and compliments of fellow whites.
It was actually kind of nerve-wracking, having all eyes on me like that. I had no choice but to hold my head high, square my shoulders, and walk proudly like I hadn’t a care in the world. One thing I know about wearing a sari: you can’t pull it off if you’re walking hunched over like you want to be invisible. So I didn’t bother trying.
I did learn two valuable things though: for one, saris are really comfortable on a hot sunny day, and two, that I can drive while wearing one.
After I got home, I did a little more Googling. A common complaint of the “white women shouldn’t wear saris” camp was that a Westerner that tries to wear Indian (or any other ethnic clothing) is being rude by appropriating culture that doesn’t belong to them, as if clothing can be insulted or demeaned by some sort of fashion-specific manifest destiny.
This didn’t sit well with me. I live in a city where whites are not a majority. We have an equal number of blacks, as well as large populations of Hispanic and various Asian nations. My city is one of the more violent ones in the US, having a murder rate in the triple digits nearly every year. I have experienced a great deal of what the popular media likes to refer to as “reverse racism.” As if any racism is OK; as if it’s excusable because whites in the recent past used to commit racism, so let’s just go for an eye for an eye and not evolve and do better than our forefathers did.
I’ve never oppressed anyone. I have never called anyone a racial slur – though when I have confrontations in my city (as is inevitable from time to time) I’m almost always called some derogatory name such as cracker or worse. My mother’s side of the family has always been “trailer trash.” We’ve never had the money to own real homes, let alone slaves. I don’t condone racism, I don’t condone racial slurs, I believe in equal opportunities for everyone based on merit and not ethnicity. 60,000 years ago we all had a common ancestor, so in my own scientifically-minded opinion, we’re all the same. The devil, as usual, is in the details – in this case, the details of skin color, ancestral origin, culture.
So when I read that a Westerner in a sari is committing the sin of cultural appropriation, I got more than a little offended, if I’m being honest. Isn’t the intent more important than outside opinion? Sure, I know it’s not realistic to expect people to be reasonable about some things. But how is my admiration and love of the sari an insult to anyone? How is something so positive turned by some people into a negative?
All that aside, this sort of statement seems rather hypocritical. As people all over the world turn aside from their traditional wear in favor of the Western uniform of jeans and t-shirts, shouldn’t it be an occasion of joy to see that their cultural heritage is treasured by people on the outside of the culture? How exactly is it that a non-Westerner can go between the different styles of dress, but a Westerner cannot? Is this not a double standard, and is this truly acceptable?
As a Westerner of my generation, and from a liberal state to boot, I have a generous portion of Western Guilt ingrained in me. We’re taught to be guilty about what we have, and what we are. The imperialistic activities of our ancestors, as well as the rampant greed and corruption of the corporations and the corporate-directed government are a heavy burden on those of us who know better and who regret what has been done in the past, and even in the present, by people that we do not appreciate or admire.
I spent three weeks in Thailand a decade or so ago. Even though haggling was expected and to not haggle was considered rather rude, I felt terribly guilty trying to argue down what I felt was already a ridiculously low price. This need of mine to find that Indians will accept my wearing of the sari is another manifestation of this Western Guilt.
I’m not appropriating the culture, I’m celebrating it! And yet because of the color of my skin, some people consider me to be continuing the abhorrent practices of imperialism simply by choosing to dress in something beautiful from another land.
The power structure of the world is shifting. By my grandchildren’s time, I fully expect India and China to be the world’s leaders in most of the places America leads now. My embracing of the sari, rather than being seen as a confiscation of something that does not belong to me, should perhaps be seen as my acceptance of future world leadership.
I would like to feel proud to wear a sari, but there will always be that little voice that has been instilled in my heart, that because I’m a white woman from America, I don’t have the right to enjoy the clothing and culture from other lands as if they were my own. And I find this to be a sad state of affairs.
Yes, Europeans and Americans have done a lot of damage in the world, and still do. But not all of us support what goes on. Some of us are disgusted by past and present imperialistic acts. Holding all of us responsible for the actions of people long dead, or unsupported by us in the present, is unfair. And bearing resentment against us because of where we were born, or the color of our skin and hair, is just continuing the age-old evil of xenophobia and acts of murder and destruction in its service.
The world gets smaller every day. We all have to live in it. We should all be allowed to celebrate whichever parts of it that we love, no matter if it is something native to our lands or not.
Even if something is not native to one’s homeland, it can become native to one’s heart.
Gori Girl lives in the San Francisco Bay Area, where she has access to a great deal of Indian culture. She has developed a huge crush on India in general, and Punjab in particular. Having developed a taste for bhangra and Bollywood, she tries to make sense of cultural differences with a bohemian eye and an ironic and irreverent sense of humor.
Peta Jinnath Andersen is a freelance and fiction writer. Born in Sydney, Australia, to a Fiji-Indian father and Scottish mother, she’s a bit confused about her background, but loves it all the same. Currently living in the US, she has just had her first child, and is busy studying hard in an effort to learn more about her Indian heritage – including taking Hindi lessons – so she can teach her son about just what it is that makes an NRI special.
← Previous Comments
on July 19, 2010
at 4:16 pm
I don’t think Jeevan is a racist and that his feelings in regards to his own culture should be noted. I too think sarees are beautiful but one should be careful when you are picking and choosing elements of someone else’s culture as if you are picking a flavour of ice cream.
As a half Asian girl myself (East Asian, not South), I despised Asiaphile men who ‘preferred’ me because of one half of my heritage. I despised the way they ripped off Asian culture by decorating their houses in symbols they could not understand because they ‘liked’ them. I despised the way they tried to relate to and impress Asian women by obsessing over Asian culture as if it were some kind of new ‘trend’ – so I can 100% understand where Jeevan is coming from. Taking an interest in someone else’s culture is no big deal – in fact, it’s a good thing. When it comes to the point that you’re obsessive and trying to act like you are OF that culture though, is not cool.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t go ahead and wear a sari if you really like it, I’m just saying that you need to try and understand his view-point without jumping in and labelling him a racist, whereas in truth, he is far from that. It’s nothing to do with not wanting white people to assimilate with your culture – it’s about feeling that foreigners are treating your culture, which your people have spent 100s of years developing, like a superficial trend statement.
Have you ever heard of Japanophiles? If you behave like a Japanophile in regards to Indian culture, then you’re being disrespectful – it’s as simple as that. It’s nothing to do with you being white.
on July 19, 2010
at 5:38 pm
Angie — thank you for making this point so clearly and concisely. In my frustration with this shift that I see towards the exoticization of Asian cultures, I let my emotions get the better of my writing.
Wearing a saree, some claim, is just wearing a saree, but I have a hard time accepting that. I want to reiterate that nothing is free of cultural luggage and what one person labels “appreciation” is another person’s appropriation.
And please, don’t use the “I know Indian people who think it’s fine” excuse. You can find Black people who don’t think the N-word is offensive, you can find East Asians who think the C-word is humorous, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay.
on July 20, 2010
at 2:33 pm
@Gori Girl, the answer is no! Can you imagine if this discussion was taking place in person. There would be scraps of denim and chiffon flying all over the place!!
@Jeevan, as an Indian I was initially alarmed by your comments. I can kind of see where you might be coming from now, even if I don’t fully concur with your view. Some years ago I remember being highly irritated at the sight of that master of the personal brand that is Madonna, dolled up in a sari. It may have had something to do with the fact I can’t stand the woman but admittedly it was partly down to a feeling that she was exploiting an important part of our culture in a very cynical, calculated and commercial way. However, I do not have any problem with a white working class mum wishing to tie one if it makes her feel beautiful or sexy. You may feel that this is a contradiction.
There are other instances of cultural appropriation that really bug me. I grew up in the 80s following the whole Black British and African American urban music scene. Great music by great artists. However, most of them were not commercially successful yet their music was still finding its way onto the airwaves and high into the charts, albeit in a very diluted form and often as cover versions. Many, mainly white, media friendly artists were blatantly ripping off this music and making their fortunes off the back of it, while the original artists were not given due credit.
on July 21, 2010
at 1:54 pm
Jayanth Tadinada, sorry, I have just seen your answer.
Yes, problems are very similar. As for “looking at each other” etc I can say that the strict opposition of the West and the East is a part of the modern political ideology. Unfortunately it becomes more and more popular. People even try to rewrite the history to justify their racist views.
As for our discussion, I am glad that it has remained peaceful, because the questions of the past, culture and history are very delicate and complicated, so, it is easy to offend each other.
I am sure that you have read “Mahabharata”. So, I suggest that you should read it again, but e x t r e m e l y attentively. Then you will see that my words were not groundless.
Was glad to talk to you!
on July 21, 2010
at 3:02 pm
@Angie, you are absolutely right. For many people someone’s heritage becomes some sort of label. Being a Slavic girl, I face this problem not only in Europe, but also in Asia.
I also agree, that people who try to act as if they belonged to some other culture are disgusting. I hate as well people using my culture without knowing much about it.
@Jeevan, appreciation doesn’t mean appropriation. They are the same for you, but not the same in reality. I understand where your opinion comes from, but emotions are not a good base for arguments.
In Asia it is in vogue to blame white people, I know. But let’s face the truth. Asians have appropriated thousands of our achievements in culture. In asian cities we see thousands of people trying to “look like white people”. So, wearing a saree is just a grain of sand in front of the things that Asia has adopted.
You have already said that my posts make you even more sure of your words. But let’s be honest, they just make you angry, because you don’t want to face the truth. I don’t wish to offend you and other people who may share your views, I just want to remind you of things that you try to ignore due to purely p e r s o n a l reasons.
on July 21, 2010
at 3:20 pm
Maria, I think people have been very polite with you, but please stop making generalized and sweeping statements about cultures and individuals such as how “it is in vogue” for Asians to blame whites and how Asians have appropriated western ideals. Keep in mind that many of these western ideals were forced upon people through colonization (a point many here have made repeatedly). Lighter skin as an ideal to achieve is a dangerous and self-damaging hangover from colonialism that makes a people ashamed of who and what they are. Nothing that creates self-hatred and shame is voluntarily appropriated, it is instilled forcibly — at least initially.
I also think your tone towards Jeevan is quite patronizing. He may be angry, but anger does not always come from a place of ignorance. For you to sit there and accuse of him of not wanting to “face the truth” was deeply offensive to me, also. You are not a person of color so please don’t assume to know our motivations.
I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not aware of the deeply offensive things you are saying because you proclaim them to be the truth and so anyone offended by them is simply not seeing the truth. This is a flawed argument.
Please respect the fact that there are things you do know and things you don’t. Feel free to speak of your Slavic heritage, but please leave ours alone. And before anyone else says “Well, why don’t you leave our white heritage alone then,” keep in mind that white colonial culture was forced upon us. Whether we like it or not, white culture is a part of our heritage.
on July 23, 2010
at 3:55 am
the Rajashani culture is very nice and colorful history. it should be add in your project Gori,
radhe
on July 24, 2010
at 2:05 pm
You have fun with your sari Gori Girl. I am never sure if sari or yoga or Shakespeare or Karate belong to anybody….
on July 25, 2010
at 12:23 am
I’m a man from Africa studying in India. The way I was treated at first because of my skin color was deeply hurtful but when even my lecturers saw that I spoke English better and more fluently than them they were humiliated. I’m proud of being black and I’ve never have and never will use skin lightening creme because I’m ashamed of my skin color. That is the most pathetic thing in the world to do. Now at college people respect me because I respect them. They often compliment me on how I never smoke or drink or chew tobacco. Even the girls are always respectful and often asking me how Africans treat their women and daughters. The reason why Africans are hated and discriminated is because of our pride, our immunity from the Indian caste system. I’ve seem situations where an Indian asks me to give up my seat to him because he is a higher caste and I always say NO! Never be ashamed of who you are. You lose all your self-respect! Take pride in being an Indian!
on July 25, 2010
at 1:47 am
@ Robert – That’s horrible! Did somebody actually ask you to vacate a seat because they are higher caste? Was it in a bus, public transport? Which city was this? Glad you refused, they have no right to ask anybody Indian or foreigner to vacate any seats for any castes.
on July 25, 2010
at 8:27 am
You guys would be shocked and disgusted at the way the Indians exult and immortalise white skin. Even for me it has certain benefits; when Indians ask me where I’m from they expect me to say Nigeria, Kenya, S. Africa or even W. Indies, probably so that they can laugh and mock me. So I always alter my accent and attitude and declare myself as an American or British, Irish or even Canadian! They’ll immediately change and become all respectful and adoring. I’ve never and will never wish to be anything than what I am – a black African. The problem is that it paints a pitful and pathetic image of the Indian sub-culture. The way they follow us when we walk around is disgraceful it’s like they have never seen a black person before. And the way they openly stare is a pure embarrassment to all indians everywhere. But then the way they want my help when boys want to use my rooms for sexual meetings with girlfriends is also a stark reminder of how they wish to have my priviledges and status as a foreigner that is protected and honored by the Indian law system and be free of the restrictive cultural and historical nature of traditions they live under. The reason I believe Indians worship white people is their care-free attitude and their freedom from the Indian culture. Also the common assumption that all foreigners are wealthy is a contributory factor. Even at my college department, I refuse to stand up and idolise senior students like all my classmates and have reported over 15 students to the authorities for racial and to my embassy for harassment. We now have a tacit agreement respect me and I’ll respect you. With black people it’s more complicated. All foreigners are heavily protected by law in India. The common Indian man has a fear of police and the police have a fear of complaining and vengeful foreigner. For Indians to have to fear and respect black people for them it’s a bitter pill to swallow. Also because they deem us lower but yet have to treat us with the same honor they bestow upon the white man is a further humiliation. But I think the major problem is that Africans cannot and absolutely refuse to treat and see the white man through India’s envious eyes. I wonder how they will treat President Barack Obama when he comes to India later on this year. Will Dr. Singh call him “kalu”, or try impress him by saying “Yo, yo, yo” or even quoting a Snoop Dogg or a Beyonce song to the President of the US? Because considering what I have seen in India, I would not be suprised.
on July 25, 2010
at 10:13 am
Robert, here’s one Indian that is not at all shocked or surprised by your comments. Indians can be amongst the most bigoted races on earth, particularly against black people. Your comment about them sucking up to the white man is spot one. What I would say there is that as an NRI, even I would be treated less well in India than a white person. Yes, this may be down to a perception of greater wealth.
I am not so sure about your theory though, that the prejudice is down to your pride and not having a caste system. I think it is more basic than that and in the mind of the bigot black people are just lower down in the ethnic pecking order. Despite ancient African civilisations they feel that black people are a backward people. In Britain, all Indians faced discrimination when they first arrived but hypocritically still felt an air of racial superiority over the black west Indian community.
The black community get a rough time in most of Asia (the continent). One black friend had a brother in the US military. During one tour of south east Asia, he would regularly be followed around by local youths making monkey noises and gestures. And he was wearing a US army uniform!
What you have experienced is unacceptable and unjustified. Sadly it is also part of human nature. You probably already know that the “black” community has similar issues. India competes with much of west Africa in sales of skin lightening creams. In the west there is often prejudice, resentment and suspicion between African and west Indian communities. Skin colour is not only an individual obsession, but black people will discriminate against other black people on the basis of skin tone. This happens throughout the west Indies, and you are much more likely to get a senior management or customer facing / sales position if you have lighter skin. Jeevan may have something to say about this and its causes!
You have been remarkably measured in your response to these incidents and carried yourself with dignity. I can tell you that if had personally witnessed such an act I would have really let the offender have it. Part of the problem for you is that even where others are not happy with your mistreatment they are too meek to openly speak out in your defence.
Power to you!
on July 25, 2010
at 12:33 pm
It’s often been said that hatred or harassment is extremely close to love. I guess in my own theory the locals see something in me that they want but can’t have. Privately you would be shocked at some of the questions I was asked when I got here. I was asked what sin I had committed to be black or why I bothered to come to India. The funny thing is that it is a group metality thing because no Indian individual would dare ask of that. However nowadays thanks to the police authorities and my awareness of the law, I’m much safer and able to stand my ground with confidence. I’m from Zimbabwe, in southern Africa, and in my home country we have a principle of earning respect and simply not demanding it and being a hospitable nation as shown by the numbers of African Indians living there, yet none of them complain of being called names or harassed. India is a great nation no doubt, I have no qualms about that, but sometimes what I see always makes me wonder. Growing up in Zimbabwe I had Indian friends, and they accepted me for being an African black and Christian and I accepted them for being also African Indians and Hindu. We would go to international cricket matches together and both support the same team; Zimbabwe. But when I tell that to the locals here, they declare me a liar, for according to them it is impossible for an Indian not to support India and have a balanced and close relationship with an African! It is almost like this element of discrimination is genetically passed down and second nature to all Indians. It is true that in West Africa skin-lightening creams were in demand, until one company started marketing a defective product which caused such horrific facial damage that it was pulled of the shelves. This incident could be said to have served as a wake-up call to Africans, who slowly started accepting themselves for who they are. We all remember the case of Beyonce publicly protesting that one of her photos had been digitally touched and “lightened” to make her whiter. And you’re right, Africans sometimes discriminate based on skin color, but not at the levels or intensity I’ve seen in India. I don’t condone or speak for racial discrimination or for ethnic discrimination on any such levels as such actions are just plain evil and wrong. Hitler did it, they did it in Bosnia, it happened in Rwanda, and to the Native Americans among others. Whoever supports such actions should take another look in the mirror. So I ask why is it that NRI’s are more accomodating than locals? Also, ask your selves why the Queen of England is really not coming to the Commonwealth Games?
on July 25, 2010
at 7:41 pm
You raise a number of interesting points.
Africans / Skin creams – I am not sure this can be seen as a wake up call. The issue of dark people wanting to look lighter has not been resolved. People will just think twice before risking facial disfigurement, something that will make them more of an outsider in society than dark skin.
Indians in Africa – I can completely identify with your account from Zimbabwe. I grew up amongst a lot of Kenyan Indians in London. Whenever I made the mistake of referring to them as Indians they would be horrified. They were African and proud. India was then a developing country and they believed they hailed from a more advanced country. In 1999 I attended the India vs Kenya match at the Cricket World Cup. The audience was a sea of brown faces but an equal amount of Indian and Kenyan flags waving. The Kenyan Indians were no less vociferous than the “Indians” in support of their team. Things got so heated a few fights broke out.
The relationship between Africans and Indians in Africa varies from country to country and on the origin of the Indians. Many are the descendants of indentured labour (slaves basically), others are members of an extremely wealthy class that came to Africa to make their fortunes. In Kenya there was a lot of resentment against Indians being a small minority with disproportionate affluence and influence. A couple of decades ago, Indian homes were looted and there were cases of targeted murder and rape. Having said that, even in Africa some Indians still carry a prejudice against Africans. Marrying a black woman was taboo but many Indians used to retain an African mistress in addition to their traditional wife. Total hypocrisy.
NRIs – NRIs are no less racist than Indian residents. In some cases they are worse. Many of them are offspring of economic migrants that were uneducated and came from small villages. On the other hand, the attitude in a lot of metropolises like Mumbai and Kolkata is a lot more progressive than even modern day NRIs.
One important thing to mention is that India is effectively a continent and not a country. One’s (anyone) experience depends very much where in India they reside. You will see women in Mumbai wearing miniskirts and sleeveless vests walking around at 2am unthreatened. Meanwhile in Delhi, a similar sized city, men will ogle women who are conservatively dressed at any time of the day. Sex crimes in Delhi have reached unacceptable levels and bear in mind many are not reported.
on July 26, 2010
at 5:32 am
For e: I get my saris from two places: Utsav has quite a variety of handloomed ones if you comb through carefully. SariSafari is a site by some American sari-lovers (more like sari scholars really) containing much info and history as well as an (over-priced) sari shop. But I like the extra info I can get from SariSafari, so it’s sometimes worth the extra money.
Hope that helps!
on August 6, 2010
at 6:34 pm
UGH, more than anything I really hate asian culture appropriation.
No, it’s not right for you to be wearing another culture’s clothing. IDGAF if you have indian friends. I don’t see the fairness in how I, being asian, am looked upon as being “fresh off the boat” wearing clothing and yet some privlidged white woman can come along and suddenly it’s ~*cool*~.
Check your damn privledge and then come back and complain about how ~hard~ it is being white.
on August 12, 2010
at 2:14 am
nice post, and i think no one really minds any non indian wearing indian attire, i guess its a matter of pride if others want to follow our culture so keep wearing saris..
namit
on August 21, 2010
at 10:07 pm
Wow. I had to take a bit of time off because life got in the way. I just wanted to point out to Giselle that she is making assumptions about me because I’m white and from the West. What makes you think I’m “privileged”, eh? By my own national standards, I live below the poverty level. By many other country’s standards I know I am privileged just to come from America, but that is a rather racist assumption on your own part.
I find it interesting that on one hand some Asian people are saying that people like me have no knowledge of nor appreciation for other cultures, yet on the other hand are indignant or even incensed that I would dare to try to learn about it in any way I could.
It just goes to show that in this climate of political correctness more often than not offense is in the eye of the beholder, and what people find offensive can be more a reflection of their own prejudices than something intentional.
on August 29, 2010
at 11:50 pm
Gori Girl – Before you dismiss that you have white privilege please educate yourself on what it is! You have it, like all white people in the West, you benefit from it weather or not you can recognize it! I recommend the blog whatwhitepeopledo and search white privilege. Read the comments then maybe you’ll get it.
I myself as an Indian woman cannot stand white people who appropriate Asian cultures. I find it offensive on many levels, especially when they act like a know-it-all or try to make a quick buck off of it!
“Feel free to speak of your Slavic heritage, but please leave ours alone. And before anyone else says “Well, why don’t you leave our white heritage alone then,” keep in mind that white colonial culture was forced upon us. Whether we like it or not, white culture is a part of our heritage.”
THIS! THIS! THIS!
I don’t expect you to try to understand as white people tend to just become defensive since they are not use to hearing that they are NOT ENTITLED to everything!
on August 30, 2010
at 12:49 am
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/
on August 30, 2010
at 1:54 pm
So, because I think saris are beautiful and I like wearing them I am being a know it all? I don’t follow your reasoning.
And I am familiar with that blog. It is by a guy who feels guilty for being white and not everyone agrees with what is in it. Further, the comments show as much racism going towards whites as whites supposedly show against other peoples. Because intolerance of a person because of where they’re from or the color of their skin is racism — whether people want to admit it or not.
I’m sorry you feel that way, but holding onto a grudge like this is not doing you, me or the world any good at all.
on August 30, 2010
at 3:20 pm
Gori Girl, I don’t think Indus is calling you in particular a know-it-all, just venting that there are others who are.
I also think your definition of racism is valid — but only up to a certain extent. If you define racism as an intolerance of color of skin, then your definition of anti-white racism is not valid. Whites went to colored lands and deemed those people as “lesser.” Now, those people dislike White people because they do not like how they were treated by them. You can therefore make the argument that Whites had no reason to label people of color as “lesser,” but they did, and that’s racism. People of color, on the other hand do not dislike Whites because they consider them lesser. They dislike Whites because of how Whites treated them. I am not saying that every person of color who dislikes Whites does so because of a colonial reaction, but only that doing so doesn’t really qualify on the same level of racism as Whites had towards others. Whites were not reacting to anti-White behavior when they judged colored people, but colored people were reacting to anti-brown sentiment when they judged Whites.
Two quick points, Gori Girl, and please be aware that as always, none of this is meant to offend, only to open up the debate for enlightenment for all:
1.You’ll notice the difference in attitudes towards saree-wearing by White women differ radically based on the gender of the person writing. Women have always felt racism most strongly because the gender inequity hurts them twice as hard. Since men don’t wear sarees, I would heed the words of the women more than men.
2. Please don’t use statements that basically say “get over it” or “don’t keep holding a grudge.” Your last sentence about Indus holding a grudge not doing her, you, or the world any good was a bit offensive, I think. Your statement suggests that such colonial mindsets are history, but they’re not. A grudge suggests something that someone is holding on to from the past, but I think Indus is addressing the present.
on August 30, 2010
at 4:14 pm
i see your points, Karthik, but most of the people who support my wearing of saris are women. IndusBlood is one of the exceptions to the rule in this debate.
I disagree with your assessment of racism being by whites and other people just reacting to racism by whites in the past. Racism is racism no matter who is pointing the finger, and no matter for what reason.
I do agree that a lot of the anger at whites by South Asians today is caused by the legacy of British colonialism. I will not deny that. But if you will forgive the intentional pun, it is the pot calling the kettle black to treat whites differently because of the past actions of people who looked like them, just as it’s wrong to treat people of other colors differently because of inherited backwards mindsets by our own white ancestors.
Saying there is a difference between types of exclusion is splitting hairs unnecessarily.
I have noticed during the discussion of this story that my statements are being rejected because of people’s perceptions of who I am as a white person, never having known me or my life. People are assuming they know who I am and why I say what I say and do what I do simply because I am white. This is getting in the way of really discussing this matter, because until people can see what I am saying uncolored by their own prejudices against me as white we aren’t really going to get anywhere.
IndusBlood made a point about whites being defensive, but I have seen continually in my life that the things people angrily accuse others of is usually something they are angry at in themselves as well. As an analogy: the angry person is looking in the mirror and sees their face is dirty. But instead of wiping their face, they try to clean the mirror. It doesn’t get anywhere.
I am working on an article about this at the moment and having a lot of difficulty finishing it because I am struggling so to say what I feel about racism in a way that will offend the least number of people so that we can actually discuss it instead of continuing to rail at one another with fury that fixes nothing.
I also know that no matter how I state things someone will take offense because I am white and I am therefore not allowed to feel as if I am excluded because of the color of my skin or the place of my birth.
on August 30, 2010
at 4:53 pm
What can I say, Gori Girl, except that we have to agree to disagree.
I don’t believe that racism is racism regardless of context. You have faced only reactionary racism, whereas others have faced colonial and reactionary racism. There is a difference.
I do believe that as a White person, you have limitations on how much you can understand and feel about non-whites. As a South Asian, I have limitations how on how much I can understand of the Black experience in America — and no matter how hard I try, I will never fully understand it because I do not live as a Black person in America. That is why I will never wear a Dashiki — because it’s nice and colorful and I do like them, but they’re also emblematic of a deeper understanding that I do not and cannot have.
Your comments about ancestral luggage and backwards thinking again presumes that racism and colonialism no longer exists. It does, and this is a point many have made repeatedly. You tend to see these things as vestiges of the past but they are very much a part of the present.
That said, write the article the way you want to write it. Sure, you’ll catch some flack, but that’s how discussions and debates get started.
on August 30, 2010
at 4:56 pm
@Gori Girl: The last thing we want is an article on racism trying to be politically correct!
on August 30, 2010
at 5:00 pm
LOL @ Jayanth. It’s a requirement because of my skin color.
on August 30, 2010
at 6:39 pm
@ Karthik — As I said, I’m not denying people’s experiences or perceptions in the world regarding racism in their own lives.
What I am saying is that making fine differences between what is and is not acceptable to say about another race is just a way to justify continuing the problem.
There can be no justification for racism, no matter why or where it originates.
on August 30, 2010
at 6:57 pm
@GG
Racist, no. Protective of my heritage, yes. It’s not your white skin that I was addressing, it’s your white privilege (that you still have not addressed). I don’t judge who you are (your character), just what you choose to do with MY culture.
Karthik spoke it more eloquently than ever I could. Very well put.
You say that I’m the exception but if you read above there are others who have similar viewpoints as me, as do many Indians. That’s a fact not an assumption. You can keep throwing the ball back at me (a reflection of myself you repeat) but you refuse to consider that you may have issues too. Of course it must be the other person with the problem, not you! So just continue to dismiss opposing concerns as invalid (sarcasm).
There are many things about being Indian that you will never understand. I’m going to leave it at this because I don’t think your interested in considering a different take and seeing how this is your blog it’s going to remain biased in your favor. That to me isn’t a discussion or a debate, that’s you expecting to hear what you want to hear. No opposition, just accolades for holding an interest in another culture. Many white people are enamored by the “exoticness” of Eastern cultures (sari, bindi, glittery bangles, bollywood) but not much else and mistakenly believe that’s all there is to it.
And you can write an article about the subject but can you handle opposing opinions? I doubt that it will be any thing more than you just venting…
on August 31, 2010
at 6:20 pm
Saying I’m privileged because I’m white is also racist. As I have repeatedly told you, you do not know me or my life to say that.
And anyway, my grandparents also had lots of justifications for saying racist things that were perfectly acceptable in their eyes. And of course, it was all the other’s fault that they didn’t like them, not their own prejudices.
While I am happy to have a debate of any kind about any subject, I do object strenuously to ad hominem and personal attacks. That is what puts an argument off track and distracts from the true points. Rather than attacking my opinion or viewpoint, you are attacking me personally. And that will not accomplish anything except creating more division instead of approaching some sort of mutual understanding.
on August 31, 2010
at 6:33 pm
Gori Girl, I think you may be taking this personally and I doubt that was Indus’ intention. I am sorry, but to deny that you have privileges because you’re White, regardless of your story or background, is not racist, and I am a little surprised that you would take such an absolute stance given how aware you are of the realities of the world (so much so that you even wrote this blog entry which many others would have stayed away from).
There is nothing wrong with having privilege, it’s only wrong when you use the privilege for gain. I know that I have certain privileges because I am a man — I don’t feel guilty about it since I cannot help but have been born a man, but I certainly acknowledge that it has given me an edge in life. But if you seriously think that your white skin has not (in many cases without even your knowledge) given you an edge, I’m afraid there’ll be many that don’t agree. This is not a personal attack and no one is asking you to feel guilty for having privilege, but I think many people don’t realize that racism is not about not getting a home loan or something like that, it’s about everyday things that you notice about how people react to you.
Like I said, I feel that racism is an active force, whereas privilege exists whether you act on it or not. Louis C.K. had a great joke about why there aren’t any brown-skinned time travelers: because the chances were good that wherever you ended up, if you were brown, you were likely going to get your ass kicked!
on September 1, 2010
at 4:34 am
Saying you have “white privilege” isn’t saying that “because you are white, you are privileged.” In fact, you can be in the poor house and still be the recipient of unearned white privilege. This “white privilege” they’re talking about is all the little things you and I could just take for granted. We live an easier life in the world because our skin opens doors for us. Recognizing that is different than feeling guilty or apologizing for being white. If regards to cultural appropriation, because we are white we can pick up almost any part of any culture and do what we want to with it mostly without repercussions. I do actually wear saris and shalwar kameez occassionally in my life, but I still recognize the validity of these points brought up by Jeevan, Karthik, and IndusBlood. For some of their points, I have no adequate answers, but they are still important questions.
on September 10, 2010
at 3:38 am
I always wanted to wear a beautiful green sari…For me a sari now seems like that fabulous dream you wake up in the middle of…it’s there and you see it, you remember it, but you can’t have it. (A lot of things are like that haha) I’m mature enough to decide against a sari now that I’ve seen such vehement opposition to Westerners wearing them…after all, there are other beautiful clothes out there.
But I would just like to say…the only thing I understand about people of different cultures…is that we both have two eyes, two ears, a mouth and nose, a heart, a bellybutton, clothes we like, jobs, loved ones like mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters, husbands and wives, friends goals, dreams, wishes, fears, opinions, ideas, mistakes, accidents, injustices, celebrations, mourning, beliefs, we both like good food and good company, we all want to be loved by someone, we all have to earn a living (or rely on someone earning a living for us), and everyone hurts after a lot of exercise. Basically, we are all people. Humans. I always thought that was enough common ground for me to be able to connect with anyone of any nationality, to appreciate their culture, but I guess it’s hard to get caught up in details…
on September 15, 2010
at 2:57 am
Well this is not quite what I expected to find when searching for saris…a heated discussion regarding whether or not a “white” woman should be able to wear a Sari in India. I wanted to express my thoughts on the matter. My child is suffering from several life threatening infections. My father has been diagnosed with cancer. We will be traveling to India for medical care and will reside there for up to one year. I have been a caretaker 24/7 for years now. I too am now falling ill. I’ve studied India and Indian culture for more than a decade. I’ve become quite the chef of Indian Cuisine. My favorite in the world. As I began to reflect on our upcoming journey to India, I wondered what would help me to get out of bed in the morning. What would help me to keep going, to find the strength to continue to care for my ailing child and father as I am now beyond exhausted. I suddenly had an image of the simply gorgeous Indian women, with skin of all different shades, walking down the streets and paths of India in saris of varied styles and colors. I thought, if I could wear a sari everyday while in India, I just might survive this nightmare that has befallen our lives. If I could simply don a lovely feminine brightly colored sari, it would help me to press on…to continue to put one foot infront of the other. I have shared my wish with some of my dearest Indian friends and their eyes sparkled in approval as they suggested sites regarding where to purchase and advice on what styles to wear when and where. A Sari reminds us that there are women left in the world. That femininity did not die with the bra burning of the 70’s. Life is not perfect. India is not perfect. But the Sari is indeed perfect. There is not a garment in the world as lovely and feminine as the Indian Sari. And so I am going to wear a Sari every day that I am in India and those Saris are going to keep me alive and enable me to continue to care for my family. May all the women of India and the women of all nations be blessed with continued beauty, strength and voice. kindest regards to all.
on September 15, 2010
at 9:35 am
@Caretaker – my advice is to stick with your plan and wear your sari daily during your trip. Regardless of the various arguments put forward here, I can almost guarantee no-one will pass a negative comment at you, though I am pretty sure you will get a lot of compliments.
on September 16, 2010
at 4:19 pm
Karthik, of course I am taking the comments personally as they are written in a personal manner and I am only human.
I do understand that there is a perception by people in post-colonial societies of there being such a thing as white privilege. However, to state again that you know for a fact that my white skin has opened doors for me when you don’t know anything of my life beyond what I’ve offered here is an incorrect assumption.
I wrote an essay about the myth of white privilege that I had intended to be published here, but it didn’t quite work for the format and I will be re-writing it so that it ties in with this article and fits better here.
However, at the risk of opening myself up for a rapid increase in blood pressure from inadvertently heated comments, I invite you to read the original piece as written at my blog. The post is called, fittingly enough, “The Myth of White Privilege.”
I think that the world is changing and that old paradigms are being replaced by new ones and that we see something from the past overlaid on top of a different reality, because reality is in large part subjective to the individual.
I think that it is human nature to look to label and to blame rather than looking at things that are part of our evolutionary makeup in order to understand and then overcome them with our rational brains.
This is our challenge as human beings; to transcend our biological hard wiring and stop blaming one another for wrongs of the past and illusions of the present.
on September 16, 2010
at 5:25 pm
There was no link, so I couldn’t read this post you recommended.
GG, I hate to harp on this, but even if no one knows anything about you or your life, it doesn’t mean you don’t have privilege. Unless your youth was like Kaspar Hauser’s, you did have privilege. Privilege, like compounded interest, grows of its own volition without you having to do a thing. White privilege has nothing to do with you, personally. It has everything to do with how others react to you.
I do agree that Political Correctness has set in motion some rather extreme views and I’m no fan of affirmative action, but let’s examine some everyday situations that differ between you and people of color — especially black people:
1.You can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that you will not be followed or harassed. (I have yet to meet a single black person who has not had this happen to them.)
2. You can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented (and not in a negative way).
3. You can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals,the poverty, or the illiteracy of your race.
4. You can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to your race.
5. You can criticize our government and talk about how much you fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider, racist, or terrorist.
6. You can be pretty sure that if you ask to talk to “the person in charge,” you will be facing a person of your race.
7. You notice how there are 1001 hair straighteners and how dark-skinned women of all ethnicities straighten their hair by pouring the most damaging, acidic gunk on their head so that they can straighten their hair? How often do you see products for “instant-fro!” How do you think that makes young Black girls think of their self-worth? Have you heard the phrase “good hair?”Guess who has “good hair.”
8. Look in advertisements, media, almost everywhere, and you’ll notice that the people of color when featured have very western (white) features and lighter skin. How often do you see a dark-skinned woman or kinky hair or a flatter, broader nose? What message do you think that sends to people? Whiter is better is the message.
9. And my favorite: You can choose blemish cover or bandages in “flesh color” and have them more or less match your skin. Little things like that make a difference.
It’s not about you specifically, but it’s about how others treat you. I don’t think you can say what is and is not white privilege when you have never been anything but white.
Your final statements are aspirational but not realistic. Transcending the biological is not in our programming (I tell you this as a biologist) and it’s rather simplistic. Also, the wrongs of the past are still here in the present, they’ve just transformed into other versions. They are not illusions just because you don’t see them.
I appreciate that you are able to debate this immensely and hope I don’t send your blood boiling over the top.
on September 16, 2010
at 8:10 pm
If you click on my picture, it should take you right to my blog. If not, http://www.syzygykthxbai.com.
Some of the examples you put here are poor ones and don’t apply in the area I live in — like the going shopping thing.
Anyway, I’ve been followed around high-class stores for being dressed as a poor person so I don’t buy into that one.
As far as your other points, I will reserve comment as I have to go pick up my children soon and I wish to be in a place I have time to address them properly.
on September 16, 2010
at 8:44 pm
Thank you for the link which I read with great interest. I think perhaps that I should clarify:
1. Having white privilege does not automatically make white people oppressors.
2. Not being white doesn’t automatically make brown-skinned people the victims of oppression.
And the examples I gave may not always be true, but the fact is that many times they are if you are of color. They’re actually one in a list of fifty that you can find anywhere on the web.
I admire and respect your bravery in coming forward with your HIV status, former homelessness, and people not knowing of your own suffering and history, but that is not an issue here. When you were able to get off the streets and apply to rent an apartment, imagine if another women, black this time, also HIV positive and formerly homeless, had also applied for the same apartment. The chances are more than good that you would have the advantage over the black woman.
I am not trying to trivialize your life lessons nor tell you that you don’t know about suffering. You’re white and you’ve probably suffered more than I have — and I’m brown and black. But that’s not the point. When someone sees you and me applying for the same job, they don’t know your HIV status, they don’t know you were formerly homeless or married to a sociopath. All they do know is that you’re white, and I’m not.
Society operates on a purely superficial level, as does privilege.
on October 11, 2010
at 10:41 am
there’s no reason why you cant wear a sari. I think its cool when non Indians want to try our culture. I have been to a few mixed weddings where white guests decided to wear sari. They all looked great. I have always wanted to wear a Chinese costume, love kimonos and would love to try african head dresses.
BTW dont forget to get back to me about Asian woman.
on October 13, 2010
at 8:32 pm
Jeans, pizza, pajamas. They all originally came from different parts of the world. So in a first argument, if we’re all going to share, then we all should share. This means in all directions.
——
I believe that wearing clothing of a different culture brings awareness to that culture more than anything.
As it is with languages, would I be infringing upon or exploiting a culture if I learned Afrikaans? Perhaps I’m just interested in the culture and that is just one step involved in learning about it!
Growing up, my family tried to expose me to many different cultures, including languages, foods, clothing, customs, religions. My parents believe in traveling because they feel that it helps you develop an appreciation for a culture and to see the people native to that culture as human beings, just like yourself. I’m very glad my parents had such a philosophy.
I have been attending school for the past 3 years in the Midwestern United States where the population is definitely mostly white. My -now- group of white friends unfortunately does not share the same love of different cultures as I do. The only foods they like are western European foods (guess America “exploited” other cultures for their foods, including corn and buffalo jerky). But some people complain when the cafe serves “El Salvadorian food” which consists of pupusas and other enjoyable things. But for others of us, enjoying the food of a different culture leads us to appreciate the differences in the world and the accomplishments of everyone.
And as for not understanding the meaning of symbols “tossed around” or worn: Something such as a necklace with the yin yang on it– who is to say that the wearer is unaware of the symbol’s meaning or what it stands for? Unless you know that person individually and have talked to them about it, it’s probably not very wise to assume that they are completely ignorant. You know what, even if all they know is that it’s based in Chinese philosophy–heck, that’s a step in the right direction–a direction toward cultural awareness and appreciation. If you are quick to assume that they don’t know what any of it is about, then how much better is that than assuming non-whites are less intelligent? If you have actually talked to the person and they doesn’t know, then why not inform them and give them a reason to appreciate the cultural artifact they are displaying! (Instead of striking fear in them to ever display something of a different culture ever again, for fear of being reprimanded).
——
During my travels, I have seen the ignorant tourists complaining about anything that’s different from their comfort zone. Let’s say a tourist visits India and hates it because things aren’t done like they’re used to, but the ONE thing they allowed a sheltered mind to fall in love with was a sari. So they buy one. Even if they know NOTHING about India (except for their own sheltered complaints), is it not better that they could at least find beauty in one cultural artifact? Isn’t it better that they can wear the sari back in their home country and be able to smile and say “Yes, it is beautiful–it came from India”?
Even to be able to wear a sari–surely you know something because you certainly had to do some research or get help to learn how to put it on!
Upon a trip to Guatemala, I bought a Guatemalan skirt in a local shop. I wear it to school on occasion here in the Midwestern US, and even though I’m not Guatemalan, I enjoy the reminder that it gives me of the beautiful country I got to experience and the people I got to meet. I also am wearing the clothing to “represent” Guatemala, here in a place where few people can point to it on a map. No, I’m not trying to be Guatemalan. I am engaged in an honest effort to celebrate and bring awareness to a culture and to help others hopefully develop interest in that culture and it’s inherent value.
I believe in the validity of my parents’ thinking: experiencing cultures helps you to understand the people as human beings. And I believe we should be open to giving people the freedom to experience these cultures in ways that help them express their appreciation in the best way they can.
on October 16, 2010
at 9:24 am
This so called black woman wears saris n salawar and many styles of Indian clothing. I am annoyed by the comments of black woman . Many black woman in ny wear saris n kameez. Stop assuming things about us . All of u sicken me. N I’m west n east Indian with a bit of Irish. Yes I’m mixed and I celebrate all of me . But because I’m dark-skinned u assume crap. Just like when i go in some desi clothing stores they go oh u like Indian clothes. I look at them n say I am India as my grandmother is gujurati. Most Indians are racist. And I have experienced it . U don’t own indian style clothes. Arabs n Africans wear it as well open a book or get a plane ticket n see the world. I am tired of u Indians with Ur black stereotypes n also whites have been oppressed. When British doesn’t own Ireland anymore let me know . Until then keep ur racist assumptions to yourself.
on October 16, 2010
at 9:55 am
Um, Monique, no clue what you’re trying to say here. Try it again without the text-speak.
No one is disputing that Arabs and Africans wear “Indian style clothes.” But they do not wear sarees, which is what is being discussed here.
Oh, and Ireland has been free of British rule since the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, so I guess it’s okay to be racist now?
on October 17, 2010
at 6:17 am
I also wear saris n so do many African , black even hispanic woman . Racism is never ok n I never said it was . Try putting words in someone elses mouth . Btw I was also addressing more than one person.
on October 17, 2010
at 6:19 am
N if u didn’t understand me why the he’ll did u respond . ….. Trying to be a smart ass much ????
on October 17, 2010
at 6:22 am
To tge woman wanting to wear a sari u wear it n enjoy it instead of listening to ignorant people who most likely don’t wear traditional Indian clothing such as the sari , kameez , lehnga.
on November 3, 2010
at 10:44 pm
I am a ‘white’ American woman married to a Nepali man and wear salwar kameez daily. Fortunately I work in an academic environment where diversity(of all types) is emphasized and get nothing but compliments on my outfits. I live in Queens NY where lots of women dress in SKs and rarely get a second look, maybe because my hair is dark brown and I am 5′3″. I feel more comfortable in SK because they suit my short, pear shaped ‘healthy’ figure much better than Western clothing does, also find the dreary palette of most Western clothing depressing. The vertical lines are flattering to shorter women like me. Also they are suitable for women of all ages, no question as an over-40 woman of ‘age appropriate dress’. As to the question of whether it is appropriate for a Western woman to wear it, consider the SK was introduced during the Mughal period(so it is by nature ‘bideshi’;) and similar attire is/was worn by Muslims in Turkey, Afghanistan, etc. Knowing this historical background I found it very amusing when someone at Kathmandu airport asked me why I was wearing ‘Nepali dress’ – LOL. Sari is a whole other issue. I think it is difficult to do it justice unless you grew up wearing it or have constant help from aunties and inlaws and lots of practice walking in a sari. I only wore one at my wedding and can only imagine how difficult it would be to wear on a daily basis – SKs are colorful, graceful and practical at the same time.
on November 3, 2010
at 10:53 pm
@Monique: I said I rarely get a second look but when I do get the ’stink eye’ it is generally from Indian women wearing tight jeans – go figure… Generally the desis I meet/see on the street, subway, mandir etc. are either complimentary or curious but not disrespectful – the ’stink eyes’ are fortunately rare. My husband and family in Nepal love to see me in SK or sari and really their opinion is all that matters to me.
on November 14, 2010
at 11:28 pm
I am utterly speechless at what I am reading in some of the comments on here. I am white with many Asian friends and other races too, and I have never seen a problem with them wearing Western clothing . Hells Bells … what an outcry if we objected to that ?? Princess Diana of the UK wore clothes indigenous to ladies of certain Asian countries and I don’t recall an outcry then . Does money and titles speak … is that why ? Where does this all stop … are we now to refuse to wear anything made by Asian countries ? Are we to stop eating the cuisine ? Should we not cover our heads if invited to any religious buildings nor remove our shoes since we could be accused of ‘mimicking’ or appropriating . I particularly find offensive such comments as, and I quote: … ‘I myself as an Indian woman cannot stand white people who appropriate Asian cultures. I find it offensive on many levels, especially when they act like a know-it-all or try to make a quick buck off of it!’ .. Also may I suggest to the lady who thinks the British own Ireland, that she takes another look at her facts. Only PART of Ireland is under their rule . Maybe our ‘friends’ on here would like to tell me what to do with the very kind and well intentioned gifts of ladies clothes given to me by friends of foreign lands .. such as Malaysia, Africa, and Pakistan ? Since these clothes are not Western do I ceremoniously dump them in the nearest trash can ? Do I ask all my lovely kind friends to come to a dumping of gifts party ?? I THINK NOT !! I love my friends and I know they love me but then they are like me … forward thinking with open, honest, non racist love in their hearts. Life really IS too short to be full of jealousies , hatred and intolerance for and by ANY colour or race. I know only too well how short life is since someone VERY close and dear to me is young and dying of cancer … so let’s get our priorities right huh ??
on November 15, 2010
at 12:35 am
Rose, I have tried to stop myself from posting again on this because of all the nonsense people have been putting up here, but this latest is just too much. For the last time, the fact that you have a friend or husband (notice how it’s always Indian husbands with White wives — rarely the other way around) or whatever has nothing to do with the issue. I am so sick of this so-called entitled nonsense of “Life is short and I don’t care about color,” stuff. Your liberal views are entirely theoretical and not based on any reality. You have a friend who is dying of cancer? Tragic. I have a subcontinent of millions dying of poverty. Recognize that many of us like being separate and having our own culture and not having a bunch of liberal white people telling us to hold hands with them and sing kumbaya. You live in a wonderful world of your own creation and that is your prerogative but please stop telling others to do likewise.
I have to say, I started writing in this column with a pretty even temperament and more than a slight measure of understanding. Now, I think I know why Jeevan was so ticked off. The more I read, the more I realize how…oh, forget it.
Gori, thanks for the forum to voice thoughts. However, I think I’m done.
on November 15, 2010
at 1:10 am
Actually, I am not the Kumbaya type and as for ‘holding hands’ etc.. I am just about to go to bed after sitting and holding the hand of this dying ‘friend’ until he slept PEACEFULLY, finally, but I saw your reply Karthik and decided to respond. I have personally sent financial aid to many of the poverty and tradgedy struck people in Asia … yes .. including INDIA . I have also, unbeknown to most people, organised many charity events for these purposes and in order that the ‘awful’ and the ‘wicked, boring rich ‘ Westerners can part with some of their wealth to assist such causes . However, I shall now be withdrawing my services since you clearly speak for one and all in your culture and let YOU do it all instead. You know nothing of me nor my circumstances and to say you assume to much is the biggest understatemnet possible. I note you use my language … I wonder why . Surely it must be anethma to you. People like you make me sick .. go and get real you silly little person .. grow up ! Me ? I am off to give my dying ‘friend’ who I love and adore and married some years ago some more medication for his very real and enduring pain. May your God be with you Karthik G. …. I think you need him . Night .
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